If you’ve had to market anything in your life then you know by now that it’s not as straightforward as posting an advertisement and waiting for the sales to roll in. We discuss how recent changes have forced B2B marketing to change and evolve.
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About Our Guest:
CEO and Co-Founder - Aimtal
Janet is the CEO + Co-Founder of Aimtal. She works directly with our clients to provide exceptional digital and content marketing services.
Janet’s passion for marketing didn’t stop after college, she worked with various clients providing digital and content marketing services. After two years of full-time freelancing, Janet decided to start Aimtal with her business partner. Together, they provide digital marketing services to their clients.
Halie Morris 0:29
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Everyday Business Solutions. My name is Halie Morris. I’m your podcast coordinator and host. Today we have with us, Janet Mesh. Janet is the CEO of Aimtal. She’s gonna tell us a bit more about marketing and agile marketing specifically. So Janet, why don’t you go ahead and tell us more about yourself.
Janet Mesh 0:52
Thanks, Halie. I’m happy to be here on the show today. As you mentioned, I’m Janet and the CEO and co-founder of Aimtal. So we’re a remote-first digital and content marketing agency. We are headquartered in Boston. But our team is fully remote. So we have team members here in the States, we have one in Europe, and continuing to grow and expand. We support clients specifically in the B2B, tech, and Saas industry, a full-service agency. Really helping them with their online marketing and a lot of their lead generation tactics and campaigns. It’s been a very exciting year with everything going even more digital than before. So excited to kind of talk through that today.
Yeah, I’m excited too because Everyday Business Solutions, as some people might be aware, is owned by Double A Solutions, and we are a SaaS company. This is going to be a really great opportunity to delve into our world and how things go.
So let’s go ahead and start though, by defining this term of agile marketing because some people or most people are very familiar with the term marketing and what it means. But what is agile marketing?
So agile marketing – and I’m not gonna call myself anything of an expert the agile community is definitely pretty strong and have very specific ways they do things. But it’s really cool because this year specifically I’ve really seen a massive shift towards marketing teams or marketing agencies and departments shift into the agile methodology. What it is is essentially a project management framework.
It’s a principle of how to do work. I always think of it as a methodology and a mindset. So you’re really focused on building processes and systems that allow your team to self organize, be cross-functional and work collaboratively and really focus on the outcome. The basis of being agile is to be adaptable. Everything’s optimized so that the team can work efficiently without sacrificing quality. That is kind of the root definition of it.
Everything’s optimized so that the team can work efficiently without sacrificing quality.
Typically, with marketing, you would plan out your entire year, your entire marketing plan for the year. Like we’re going to do this month and this quarter, and we’re going to focus on this but it makes things very rigid. If you have a massive plan and you’re tying your budget really specific to that grandiose plan, and things like 2020 happen and Q1 in March comes around and it just throws all your plans completely out the window.
So, with agile marketing, which is a great thing to start to bring into like your processes and how you’re thinking about marketing and structuring your plans and your strategies, is that you’re not going to be completely disrupted if something bigger than your company or yourself changes everything for your industry or for your product. It also doesn’t have to be a negative thing for a lot of SaaS brands.
Actually, this has been like a huge opportunity for them to grow. So when you have this opportunity for exponential growth, how are you able to scale quickly without destroying the internal processes of the team or a range of things? We can go in all different directions.
No, it’s, it’s true, because we’ve always tried to be really conscious of how we talk about it, but our company has done amazing these last several months. In fact, it’s been one best month after the other. So it’s true. SaaS is doing amazing because there’s so much need for it and because that’s the way the world was already beginning to pivot. Now it’s just been accelerated.
2020 was a catalyst that was introduced to some of these changes that were already occurring and the rise of SaaS has been happening for a while. Many people are probably familiar with a CRM or HRIS or things like that that do these different services. But the idea though is that we could have flopped if we hadn’t been able to pivot.
It comes back to the agile marketing and being able to be flexible, not just for giant pandemics, or even recessions like 2008. It’s for any time an external factor puts stress on your company, or sometimes an internal factor if it’s big enough.
For sure. What I really like about the Agile Manifesto, there’s actually a whole manifesto that’s been created. It was like the early 2000s  because it came from the tech industry, agile methodology. That was where it was born and they created an entire manifesto.
They have 10 principles, but the one that I really identified with was responding to change over following a plan. I think any marketer listening to this or even any business owner, you definitely love to follow a plan. They like having things organized and being able to forecast. I thrive in that but what I’ve learned is the more adaptable you can be, the more you can respond to change.
You definitely should have the plan as your guardrails, but know that you’re going to have to change things and tweak it and just be flexible. It’s almost like using it as a blueprint instead of “this is what needs to happen.”
When I was planning for this podcast, for example, I started very broad. Then I worked my way down and I gave myself a lot of spacing. I think we were recording about four or five weeks out, ideally, for each episode so that if something happens, we can record new content quickly, or we can shuffle content appropriately so that it’s not going to throw everything off.
If staff changes happen like we have somebody going on vacation or we have somebody changing department or leaving us that we’re not shorted because we don’t have that person anymore. No, it’s okay. That person’s not available now, but now what do we do? We try to swing into it, which is the whole principle of it really.
Yeah. It’s very focused on constant improvement which I really like as well, because in order to improve you have to do reflection so they tie into each other. So, how we are structured I can speak specifically. With my team, we don’t aren’t truly doing agile exactly. We found that we didn’t necessarily need those very key pieces, but we really liked taking the mindset and the methodology of constant improvement and really analyzing.
It’s really important to marketing because you need to understand what’s working well for the brands you’re working with or for your business and what’s not. Doing that reflection and then trying to iterate and innovate almost week over week.
Of course, giving things enough time to test but really being flexible about how you’re moving forward and what you can change So we do it on a weekly basis where my team, with all of our client projects, on Mondays we meet and we go over what was in the pipeline for projects and tasks.
Even on our Monday meetings, we do our reflection and an analysis of what worked well and what didn’t work well the week before for clients, the areas that we can see for improving some of their marketing strategies. Maybe it’s that some of their social media channels need a little bit of a bump or we need to do something a little bit different with the lead generation campaign to drive in some more leads for them that week.
We have those conversations to come up with something new or things that we have worked on before that will reapply. Then we do it again on Fridays where we have a team call. We’re all remote so these meetings are really important because it’s that face-to-face time.
I like to think of them as a bookend on the week, Monday to Friday. So on Fridays, we do a wrap-up call and that is for discussing what worked well and what didn’t. We have a celebrating-your-wins section of our meeting where the team gives each other kudos or recognizes good things that happen. Then there’s a section where we talk through some of the stuff internally with the company and for clients that we can improve.
Sometimes there isn’t anything, which is great, but it’s not necessarily that you want to frame it as a negative. It’s really what can we do better? Or what could bring a little bit of ease next week? We don’t feel so overwhelmed that way. What can be a little bit bring of excitement into the mix? It’s really nice because then you have to have everything documented so you can refer to it and see how things have progressed.
That’s like a checkpoint, you know? Check-in, see how you’re doing, reface a little bit if you need and then get ready to go again, your pitstops in NASCAR. Grandma loved her NASCAR So, just as long as they’re not as brief as those pitstops are now.
Well, yeah, I know that some teams like we’ll do like a daily standup, where they’re assessing what they’re working on what the blockers are. Then you do what we call it, a wrap-up, but the technical term is called a retrospective. It’s where you’re really reflecting. You can do all types of retrospectives, but we kind of just do it in terms of what I just described.
I think there’s there are some countries that do that every day. They’ll do a big company meeting where it’s just basically news that’s going out and then they’ll go into their teams. They’ll meet and then do more information exchanges and things like that. So the face-to-face interaction is so huge. I’ll sometimes just message my coworker and be like, I need help but can we do it on Teams so that I can see your face.
That’s really nice thing that happened this year too. All the video programs like Zoom, Teams, Slack, we use the tools are really important actually in marketing, just in running a business or a team. We also use Trello for all of our project management. It’s kind of like the backbone of everything that we use.
We actually started using another Atlassian tool called Confluence. We started using it as our Wiki. I call it the Aimtal brain. So all of our processes are documented. That’s what we’re building on now. So we’re democratizing information.
Everyone has like a level playing field and it’s not some tribal knowledge that you’ve learned something. It’s very clear how you work and how we do marketing or how we like to work with clients and our expectations and standards for quality.
Even just how the team is expected to work together, especially remotely, and it’s also really nice to just jump on a Zoom call with someone or video call and just chat things out as well, instead of just always like DMing someone.
We do the same thing with information sharing as well. We use an internal Help Desk, and then we have our external help desk to make sure that somebody who wants to learn, we hand them the information that will help them get started because it’s a lot.
I know you’re probably in the same boat. It’s a lot of information for somebody coming in. I actually did our onboarding before, so I had to kind of work out what they need to know what they don’t need to know.
Then once that they’re caught up, or even before that, they’re welcome to go straight into our internal Help Desk and start pulling information and learning more. It’s super available, which is awesome because some people absorb so much and they want to learn.
Yeah, for sure. That’s definitely a very odd job because it’s you’re allowing people to self-organize and self-manage. I’ve seen that it makes a very efficient team and structure because someone’s not dependent on someone else to like respond to their message to give them information. They can serve themselves.
It helps on the phones with customers too. You need to find something quick and you can just search for it while that person’s on the phone.
Did you guys build it yourself? I’m curious.
So we have a couple of people in the office who are mostly responsible for it. Our support, who have to know all the little intricacies, they just really are building all the content. It’s always growing and changing. It’s a living beast. It’s never just one way.
Yeah and we just use something basic like SharePoint. Everybody has access to it already through their email and it’s super easy to set up our articles and embed videos and do things like that.
Excellent. We have a client that does that stuff too. They work a lot in SharePoint.
I never knew you could do all that stuff.
It’s really interesting.
Right and then people don’t even understand everything that Excel can do. Every time somebody is “oh, you did you know, you could do this?” No, I had no idea.
But coming back more to the agile marketing side of it. We mentioned mindset a couple of times. Well, you mentioned the mindset a couple of times. Do you want to dive more into what mindset means for you and how if you’re bringing somebody on or you’re working with somebody, how you train and teach that to somebody?
Specifically marketing to marketers, we do love to plan and like know what’s ahead. It’s nice to present to clients as well. This is the expected plan, but a lot of the times when I’m presenting a strategy or things I just kind of leave with the caveat of this is what we’re planning for but we’re gonna keep it open or a little bit flexible, just depending on what could happen. It’s almost just like building a framework.
Then as you’re getting closer to the month or the week you get a little bit more granular of what you’re going to be pushing out. So it really comes down to that mindset of, as I said before, responding to the change and being flexible.
Instead of just being cut and dry, like no, this has to happen no matter what happens. Because there’s just things like COVID-19. Several things happen. Honestly, it’s a matter of some things that will go out and talking a little bit more specifically about social media.
So we create content calendars and we map out what we’re going to be like posting about for clients, but things will happen like what happened this year with Coronavirus, or even just the social unrest in our country. The way that brands are speaking online or even coming down to the imagery.
We had to assess a lot of things that we were putting out, not showing any stock pictures or video that is showing people together, like closely working together, because that’s not something that is like possible with social distancing.
So even just making sure that when you’re creating, everything is taking a step back and assessing. Is this going work with the current situation in the world or within our industry, and really keeping a pulse on that. I find it’s really important. What we like to do with our socials for our clients is we plan things out, all their posts, and work proactively, but we do leave time to focus on doing some on the fly posts.
A lot of the time those are the best posts. The ones that you just kind of like put up and have like a creative spark usually do the best. Then even ones that are just more community engagement focused, where to spend a little bit of time sharing different resources or chatting through the brand with some of their followers.
That is really important to the strategy as well where you’re not planning everything but you have a plan to jump on for a couple of hours per week to do some flexible work on social to really like engage and connect with people.
I know I can imagine that if you had taken a post about flying somewhere and going on a vacation and enjoying a certain product and you put out that post while people get quarantined.
For example, going out to a cafe or something. No cafe is open, and you wouldn’t want to go to a cafe if it was. It would detrimental because then it looks like you’re insensitive. Then on the flip side, if you’re not flexible enough, and you just decide to scrap that content, then you have a gaping hole of opportunity that you could have filled.
It’s like our CEO says, if you’re not getting better, you’re not constantly improving as you’ve mentioned before, then you’re getting worse and you’re falling behind.
I’m not saying like, you shouldn’t have a plan. You definitely should, you need to understand your industry and our big focus is we take like an empathetic approach to what we do. So we’re always thinking of the person that we’re marketing and speaking with, trying to connect with on behalf of our clients.
Through the content, we’re creating for social or through webinars or blog posts, downloadable guides, whatever it is, it’s always about that person, not necessarily about the company.
When you’re in the mindset, and you’re putting yourself in the shoes of that person, it just makes it a little bit easier to understand their worldview. and what they’re going to respond to. What do they truly need as a solution and how the content can work to solve that for them?
Especially right now when there are so many concerns and so much worry in the air that it’s coming back to them. They want to feel appreciated, acknowledged, and that they’re being taken care of.
Yeah, exactly. Like you said exactly. What I was thinking was that it comes down to the trust really. Specifically content and using digital channels to share your information from your company. Content helps build trust and that trust compounds over time so if you’re really focused in those areas.
We’re trying to be consultative and build trust with people. Everyone that I talk to is just like looking for that trust and trying to find something or someone that they can believe in and associate with, that they feel comfortable with. So brands have a lot of opportunities to fill that gap, which is pretty exciting.
I love quoting the people for my office because they’re pretty smart people in there. Our sales manager kind of said something along those lines. He’s from the sales side. So he said, you’re not selling when you make contact with somebody.
You’re not selling when you initially connect with them. It’s not your product, it’s not your business. It’s not anything. But you are selling yourself in that relationship. They like to connect on the individual level first, so it feels personal, and it feels like it’s going directly to them.
You’re going to actually start to build up that trust versus just, here’s my product. It’s shiny and new. Whether it’s SaaS or a retail-based product, it’s the same thing.
Definitely your product or your service can solve something of someone’s life and you can really help change the way they work or do things, but that’s only one piece of their world.
So, how does that fit into maybe an hour of their day? It kind of keeps people a little bit humble and it’s a good thing to kind of listen and realize that okay, this is our role, but it may not be like the role of our customers. How can we at least improve one little aspect of it?
People will sacrifice a lot to be happy. I mean, rom-com movies are a great example just because you always see this princess or whatever runs off for this guy with no money or there’s always something that people are giving up for these things that they feel gives them emotional value.
So it comes back to you may have a great product that enhances the part of their life, it could even enhance their entire workday, but if you can’t make them happy in the process, they’re probably not going to buy into it.
Yeah, definitely. I agree. It comes down to those relationships and the consistency of it. Just because someone became a customer or they’re in your community, learning from you doesn’t mean that it’s just one time you’re connected, and then it’s move on to the next one.
It is really that quality over quantity. What I’m seeing which is really nice is that there’s not all this greed of having to need everything and more more more. The niches are in the riches and being a little bit more focused and knowing who you’re targeting and connecting with, truly creating those relationships and that connection.
That’s more what it’s about instead of just trying to get all these eyeballs on your content or like impressions and those vanity metrics. It’s really about who’s actually committing to engaging with your like company and your content is asking for more, giving feedback, and wanting to like help through the process.
No, it’s true because our company is very good in that we early on established that our customer service team is the majority of our company. We have a couple of different areas of that, depending on what their focus is.
So making sure that you’re actually taking better care of your existing customers than potential customers because they’ve already committed to you. They’re putting their time and effort and money into you.
Actually reciprocating that is a huge thing and it’s more affordable for you in the long run. So it makes more sense. I think we’re starting to see more companies branch towards that. Your marketing is also not just externally focused. It’s internally focused on your current customer. It’s not always just trying to sell you a different feature or whatever. It’s just trying to connect and continue to build that relationship.
Absolutely. We focus more on the external but there’s a whole other element of it and it’s actually fun. I’m even trying to help some of our clients with more like that, the customer lifecycle marketing. After they become a user or customer, what kind of content is giving them information? How are you bringing them back or keeping them engaged? It’s really fun actually.
It’s really cool too because you already have an audience. They’re already looking to receive something from you. I’m usually informative, the educational stuff is huge, but they’re already there and they’re waiting.
So I know the big thing with marketing is that your exposure is huge. How many views are you getting? How many likes versus the number of followers and views did you get? What percentage of them actually like the content that you’re putting out? And if you’re not marketing to the people who liked it in the first place…
Exactly. Yeah, you want to give the attention to the people and the audience who’s showing up and stayed around instead, really nurturing that before moving on to the next stuff.
You can do that with subscription, ours is subscription-based, or you could do that with things that are retail. So each time you sell to them, it’s one object they keep. Returning customers huge though.
I know I have huge brand loyalty for a couple of brands because I know them inside and out, and they sent me a thank you message when I bought from them. Little things like that go a long way. But again, it’s only effective if you’re able to keep up with the current situation.
It comes back to something that may be working well, but there are little tweaks you can make, or maybe it’s not really working well. So, taking those like opportunities to reflect and analyzing, doing a retrospective, or asking what worked?
I found that we’ve started doing it more for our projects where we do analyze, like after a campaign or something like that. What worked well? What didn’t? We would think things that we could do in the future and it’s great because six months from now you may not remember those very minor details.
So it’s really helpful to have documentation to refer to. A lot of that you’ll apply but there are little things that you’re like, Oh, yeah, when we did that last year. What was the process? Or what was the decision from that because your things move too fast and you’re dealing with so many things at once that sometimes you can miss those little details. So it’s nice to have a record and be able to refer to it.
Then I think the thing with social media is things can do very well. They can kind of just coast and quietly do well or they can really tank. It could be that they just don’t get any engagement or it stirs up too much attention on the bad side of things and actually you just gave yourself negative publicity.
So, not only being able to not use content that does that, but be able to pivot and adjust when it does happen so that you can say, No, that’s misunderstood, or, oh, we misunderstood. Now we’re gonna fix it, which a lot of companies have had to do recently.
A rule of thumb is don’t delete the post. Please don’t delete the post. Just be transparent. We made a mistake. This is happening. You’re going get so much backlash otherwise. The worst thing is to be “I don’t want to deal with it” because people have their records online.
People take screenshots all the time, and you can easily find them. I’ve seen this happen a couple of times and on Twitter specifically. Someone put something on a thread, but then they’re like, Oh, I shouldn’t have said that and I’ll delete it, but people have captured it through like the thread readers and things like that.
So it’s still recorded. Definitely don’t delete. Own up. If you make a mistake just realize it and try to bridge back the gap if possible. Cancel cultures have gotten very real this year.
Right. I think we respect people more who own their mistakes and then actually improve upon them instead of just owning the same mistake over and over and over again. They own it, and then they actually do something actionable with that information.
Then, as you said, don’t delete the posts, because then you’re in the news again, and again it’s bad publicity because you didn’t own it. You may be put out half of an apology and pulled down the post. You just pretended it didn’t exist, which feels fake to people who are watching but also it just it leaves a bad taste. What else are they hiding?
I think brands will get negative feedback online or like negative comments on social or messages and sometimes you definitely need to respond. Try to de-escalate it. But sometimes depending on how large the response is- we work with a SaaS and they have millions of users- you just can’t respond to everyone unless everyone has the same problem and it’s like a bigger issue.
Sometimes, it’s cool because then if you come back to that community you can rely on them as well to help you respond or they can help figure things out. Not everything warrants a response from the brand all the time and it can be better just watching and listening really.
A lot of the thing is that we want to respond to try to fix everything, but sometimes it’s good just to listen and observe and then understand what you do next instead of being super reactionary.
With COVID-19, we’ve had a huge social movement that’s still ongoing. There were a lot of brands that just put out something. I think I was most impressed by the ones that actually stepped back, maybe left a note, and said, We don’t think we have something to input at this time. Just let them know that we are going to be quiet and they sat back and they were what they said they were, which was really cool.
But also we saw some other ones that had a different approach. Disney is a great one that we could put out there because everybody’s familiar with it. We’ve watched probably everything that’s on there during the quarantine. What they did, I think at the beginning of some of their older movies is put a note and they didn’t pull down that movie.
They just put a note about it’s not being representative of their current beliefs and everything. This was just how the company was, which was kind of cool because they didn’t announce that they were doing that. They just did it and other people noticed.
Right. They didn’t have to make some big publicity stunt around it, which is I respect. Yeah, not really becoming a full bandwagon- we call it like a bandwagon brand, or just jumping on the performative allyship and using it as a tactic.
A lot of people realize that that’s not the way that things should be done. Stay true to your values and what you represent, what you’re able to do. You don’t want to necessarily promise things that your company’s not capable of.
Definitely. It’s interesting because there’s been really no diversity of responses to what’s going on. Obviously, there are some good and some bad and some people that you still don’t know what they were doing.
But it’s true because consumers, whether it’s a business as a whole or it’s an individual consumer, everybody has some degree of social media or something we’re aware of it. They know fake when they seem fake.
Oh, people are so brilliant and well educated on that front that as soon as it happens, even if you’re not quite aware, somebody will point it out and like it makes sense in that information circles much more quickly than a brand can respond.
That comes on to I love like using content to drive marketing strategy because consumers are so educated and they want to educate themselves before they’re even having a conversation with the salesperson or putting in any sort of inquiry.
It gives them all the information that’s tailored to them in order to understand your solutions or the product more, taking the time to figure out themselves before they say “okay, I want to move forward in the process.” That’s a really nice like opportunity to start building that trust and making that connection with your ideal potential prospects.
I definitely agree. I think the last thing I would like to touch on is just the tools and advice you can give somebody to start moving towards an agile marketing system, to start making sure that they’re flexible no matter what the change is, whether it’s a huge pandemic or something on a smaller scale.
I would say since it’s a mindset and a methodology you have to adopt, definitely do the research. We touched on so many aspects of it that you can learn a lot. So coming back, start educating yourself on what it is first and if it makes sense for your team, because there’s a lot of resistance to change.
That’s pretty common, and it requires a lot of change and being flexible. So first you have to understand if your team, your marketing team, going to be attuned to this? Are they interested?
Retrospectives are a nice way to analyze first what’s working well with our processes or what we’re doing and what’s not. Instead of just coming from this place of like command-
A command and control like style doesn’t really fit well because it’s dependent on the team to self-organize and self-manage and like work towards outcomes. So really communicating what it means for your team and pulling it together in that regard, having the system first, and then building it out with a tool.
So I mentioned we use Trello for our project management. We even do it for our meetings. There’s a lot of other cool meeting tools that you can be using. We just use the one, for now, to really document what’s everyone working on.
Everyone having visibility into what’s happening across client projects and then having a place for those writing down what we can improve upon, what’s working really well to continue. That’s really important, especially if you’re a remote company or remote team. Having that constant communication and those channels is really important to make sure that everything works well.
Those are some of the things and of course, it’s the mindset and making sure that you’re staying flexible and you’re responding to change. You are still making a plan and understanding what that roadmap is but just realizing you may have to veer off course occasionally to adjust and continue forward.
You might have to instigate that change that causes the chain reaction. It goes back to staying relative and to stay relevant. You have to continuously improve or you won’t be there. That’s a good point and I think that’s a good place to wrap up. We’ve gone over agile marketing as a whole and then we’ve narrowed it down and talked about the intricacies of it.
Obviously, it’s a little broader than it is specific because it is based on this idea that the markets are constantly changing. Your customers and consumers and any way that you interact with them is constantly changing. Everybody is affected by these crazy situations that were involved, especially in 2020, the year of change.
Yes, exactly. I think everyone is comfortable at this point.
I actually took a change management class once and I think if people will even do trainings with their team on how to embrace change and instigate change and why it’s important, it would do so much. It’s like you said, it’s a mindset.
For our teams, we look for people who have that mindset but sometimes you walk in and your team doesn’t already have it if you’re joining a company. So you might have to kickstart it because people have all the skills necessary they just haven’t been in the right mindset yet.
Yeah, you’re doing a fun, quick, and creative brainstorm. It can always disrupt things in a positive way. That’s a little actionable tip you can bring one day and just be like let’s do a fun brainstorm or something like that.
Post-it-notes on a whiteboard or whatnot.
Really cool online tools you can use as well.
Yeah, because post-it-notes was the office thing but there’s less people in the office. It’s a cool idea. Anything else that you would like to touch on before we finish up?
It comes down to putting a pin in and discuss it. First thinking of who your ideal audiences are and who you’re creating content or solutions for, having that drive.
Then if you’re building a plan, just realizing that you should go into it with a mindset that things will change. How do you build it so it’s agile and adaptable, so it’s not too disruptive to what you had in mind or even for your ideal customers or prospects and creating and very fluid experience.
I would agree. I think that’s a perfect note to end on. As always, remember to tune in next week for Everyday Business Solutions, subscribe, and leave a review. Thank you!